Every church needs a database.
I’m talking about a place where information about church members is kept, for the purpose of caring for people, contacting people, and facilitating church activities. Few churches (that I know of) are using a database that they like, or that they feel is a good solution for their church. Does this describe your church?
In the past, church databases had basic functionality, consisting primarily of contact details for people in the church perhaps with an option to email someone, or print out a church directory. Today, the possibilities have moved to a whole new level, and include features such as:
- Attendance tracking (to aid follow up when people don’t turn up for a couple of weeks).
- Grouping (assigning people to groups – Bible studies, areas of service so that these groups can be communicated with, or communicate with each other).
- Assigning facilities and equipment (e.g. data projector for Simply Christianity).
- Create events and enable people to RSVP to them.
- Identify people who would be suited for particular areas of service.
- Give congregation members a log-in to edit their information (e.g. update their contact details).
- Track which people have completed child protection training.
- Create reports (e.g. a list of people who have joined over past 3 months).
- And of course, lots more.
Different databases have different features that will suit different churches. Smaller churches might get away with a well thought-through Excel spreadsheet. Larger churches will benefit from some of the functionality available in more detailed modern solutions.
The goal posts
So what should you be looking for in a church database? I suggest three technical boundaries that churches should stick within when selecting a database:
- I’ve discovered that lots of churches use Macs. Not everyone in the staff team will use a Mac, but if there’s any chance anyone ever will, a PC-only, or Mac-only solution isn’t up to the cut.
- Generally avoid offers for someone to build a database for you. This might sound harsh, but it saves a lot of trouble down the track. A congregation member might offer to build you an Access database, but what happens when they leave and something goes wrong with the database?
- For these reasons, a web-based database is the only way forward. There are lots of benefits to this. These databases don’t rely on a particular operating system. They don’t require any server maintenance skills. They are (usually) regularly updated with new features. No in-house maintenance is required. You can access information on the go (e.g. from your phone).
Those are the boundaries. Unfortunately, there’s not a long list of options for web-based church databases. Here’s a list of web-based solutions I’ve come across, in alphabetical order (in case you’re wondering!). I’m sure there’s more – but I haven’t discovered them! Please let me know if you’re aware of others:
• Ascribe
• Church Community Builder
• Connection Power
• FellowshipOne
• Icon System
• Logos 360
• OneBody
• Salesforce (not a church-specific product)
• Stafftool
Two questions I’d like to pose to you, the reader:
1. What features do you look for in a church database?
2. What database does your church use? Would you recommend it to other churches?
Thanks for this, Steve. Great service.
The question everyone wants to know, of course, is which one(s) of those listed you think is best?
Thanks Ben.
I’m actually reviewing three of these databases at the moment (the three I think have the most potential), and will then share what I like and dislike about them, and what I’d recommend for different churches.
What database does your church use?
Great.
I don’t work at church full time so I have very little to do with the DB. It’s a bespoke one centred on fundraising, because we’re a student church and that’s a big part of the ministry.
Our church uses ChurchInfo, a FREE open-source web-based database built specifically for churches – http://www.churchdb.org/
After some tweaking, it is now working fairly well for us – it does the basics well. If you have some PHP knowledge (or in my case, the ability to research, read forums, and hack around ;o) then you can customise the code to fit your own requirements.
I assume the other databases you’ve listed are paid services?
Great site, by the way, I’ve been following the RSS feed for the last few months ;o)
Thanks for sharing your experience, Greg. My worry with the open source options is the need for people with skills to install/maintain them. If there are people in the church (like you!) who have the skills (or who are willing to scour the web!), that’s great. However, I worry about what happens when people with the skills leave the church, or lose interest.
Most of the other databases cost money – either as a once off, or as a monthly/annual subscription.
I’ll also soon be reviewing a custom database built by Christ Church Inner West (http://www.cciw.org.au/).
Hi Steve,
Another consideration is whether I can pull all my data out at any time and churn it into an SQL database or similar. That’s a big one, right?
A big concern I have about online databases is their continuous availability. If the company, the host, your agreement, or your connection is discontinued, you have nothing. I would rather have the data and its control totally in-house. No matter what you are told, online database always have a back-door login for new software updates and to your member information. Limited access to your database keeps it more secure.
As long as your church database is designed in Access or Filemaker, and is not locked, someone in your congregation or community will always be able to assist if the software company goes out of business in this deteriorating economy.
I just posted this response on the article at Sydney Anglicans re: security concerns:
Security is an important consideration. However, for any of these online databases, security should be their number 1 consideration too. There is simply too much at risk (i.e. their reputation) if any data were to leak or information be hacked. Security should be the cornerstone for any online database worth considering. Security questions are usually addressed on their website as this is a common question. e.g. on Church Community Builder there is a link to “is CCB secure?” and on Fellowship One there is a link to “Availability, reliability and security“.
Hi Ben, agreed – the ability to export data is essential (and from what I’ve seen, most online databases also recognise this and include this functionality).
When evaluating a web-based solution you should definitely do your homework in regards to security and stability. Thankfully, there are now several very secure, full-featured, and stable church management software companies with a great history and client list to choose from.
I would counter that using Access, Filemaker, or any on-site storage is actually far less secure. A full-featured ChMS contains very sensitive data such as names, addresses, emails, confidential notes, attendance, background checks, giving history, check images, etc., etc. The vast majority of churches simply cannot afford the security, redundancy, and backups that a Software as a Service (SaaS) firm can provide. With the implementation of an API a SaaS can also be just as extensible. Please check out http://bit.ly/EvaluateCHMS for some tips on evaluating the various church software SaaS offerings.
I’ve been evaluating a few different options recently (for that student church you mention, Ben!) and I’m beginning to find that there seems to be two different areas of need: (1) the back-office stuff (funds & donations, email & mail-outs, etc) and (2) the pastoral stuff (follow-up, discipleship, where is the individual at).
The back-office interface can be kludgy and slow to use. But the pastoral one needs to be quick to use and flexible, otherwise the pastoral staff will end up using spreadsheets.
Finding a package which does both well seems difficult!
Also, Steve: have you had a look at The City? It’s a slightly different approach, but impressive in what it does. They mentioned at least one Aussie has flown over to the states to evaluate it.
I’m also researching options on behalf of my church at the moment. Agree with the comment that there are essentially two groups of functional requirements (back-office & pastoral).
From an architecture point of view the key would seem to be ensuring that they share a common centralised database, although there is no reason why they can’t have separate front end applications. For example the pastoral care team have a lightweight web client whilst the back office ‘power users’ who need ad hoc reports or other more complex analysis can have a separate front end app.
It could even be taken a step further with a replicated system that hosts a subset outside of the office network (maybe for external users with the lightweight client) and then a central database within the office intranet itself (there is also the added benefit that only a subset of data is outside the physical office so it offers a hybrid security model as well). Whilst this arrangement serves both sets of requirements it is complex to both setup & maintain and beyond the reach of the average church. There is also increased risk with such a solution in that if the individual(s) who set up such a system move on there are more “moving parts” to break.
So the dilemma seems to be:
1. An open source (or derivative thereof) that offers a better match to User requirements but increased risk through complexity of setup/maintenance
2. Commercial hosted application with lower match of requirements but lower risk as it is a managed solution
Thanks for your comments Ashley.
What have you found in your research that is the closest match to both sets of user requirements?
We’ve only just started seriously looking at different solutions and initially have devoted more energy on concentrating on gaining a clear understanding & agreement of our requirements as a church family.
Just starting to focus on the options now. At the moment I’d say the following:
- we will have to compromise on requirements
- haven’t turned up any solutions not already mentioned in your posting or subsequent comments
I’m torn between:
1. Jethro (http://jethro-pmm.sourceforge.net/)
2. CCB
3. Fellowship One
Coming from a background as a professional in the IT industry I think that Jethro with the distributed database architecture is an elegant solution (maybe using MS Access for the front end for the power users but locking down data access via mySQL), but, realistically this is a reasonably complex system to setup and there is an overhead here with maintenance as well (multiple points of potential failure and not many in our midst with the skills/time to work on this).
However a complete solution around CCB or Fellowship One that meets all our requirements will also require use of their API so again not a completely “standard” implementation. No further wisdom at this point.
One thing I’m a little surprised about is that the commercial applications don’t appear to be very mature in terms of event management. This is something where the models employed within the CRM platforms are very attractive, yet I think there is a strong synergy to the way we “do business” within a church context.
Think of it this way:
- Create event in Member Management System (MMS)
- Send auto generated mail merge style emails to each member asking them to register for the event, the email contains a link to the church web site
- Church member receives email & clicks on email URL, this is a unique URL that contains their individual member ID
- Rego page captures unique member ID and submits this along with the RSVP info submitted by member back into a database
subsequent emails sent to members would be filtered by those who have already responded etc.
This type of workflow doesn’t seem overly complex to me & typical of the way the “process” would work in our church (& I suspect many others around Sydney) but I can’t see this type of functionality in the products offered by commercial vendors. Am I missing something?
Another comment (I’ll keep it short this time):
I’m encouraging those at my church to call it something other then the “database”. I think this term is unhelpful as:
1. technically it is much more then a database, all the smarts are in the application that sits on top of the database
2. can be off putting to volunteers or people without an IT background. “Database” sounds a little techie and mentally people think it will be hard to use
Do others agree or am I just being too pedantic on this issue? Any thoughts/suggestions on what a more helpful term might be?
I’ve just sent an email to each of the companies that I’ve found that make church databases, inviting them to join in this conversation and share their thoughts.
Let’s see who accepts the invitation!
Proclaimcrm is a church management solution running under Outlook on a Microsoft CRM platform.This application can be deployed on premise,hosted and web-based or a SAAS solution.
The question is which method is best.My observations are as follows;
SAAS solutions are the most costly because the church continues paying for their solution which they could own and still have it web based.
SAAS and off-site hosted solutions may experience a delay depending on traffic.
If the church has an infrastructure there is little overhead in an on premise solution and this is the most cost effective solution.I agree that the hosted alternative is the next most cost effective and should be the best choice if the church does not have an internal infrastructure with an internal or outsourced administrator.
Other considerations are the ability to easily export and import data,access to data off-line,availability of people who understand the database,assurance that the organization that has developed the database will continue to exist,seemless integration with Microsoft Office(which is the most widely used),ability to customize templates and screens to the way the church works.ProclaimCRM fits all of the above
ProclaimCRM will run on PC’s as well as MAC’s.
We did not get an email from you Steven but have been tracking with the conversation so I will weigh in. I am going to take a little different tack here since most of the dialogue has been tactical in nature.
First and foremost, you must consider your short and long-term strategic ministry objectives and how you need technology to empower them. This requires input from all of the key stakeholders in the church and should tie closely back to the vision of senior leadership. Too often, technology decisions are made based on bells and whistles while the critical ministry goals take a back seat. In those cases, it should be no mystery why no one actually uses the technology after implementation. It also makes it very difficult to measure success or the lack thereof.
The next major issue to explore is who you want to empower. Is it just those in the church office and in specific leadership roles or is it the entire church community at some level? Do you view church management as purely a a database and reporting engine or do you want it to also act as a hub for communications and community, enabling people to dynamically identify different ways in which they can go deeper within the church?
Once these critical questions are discussed and answered, the church management options available to you will be narrowed down to a more manageable list. At that point, you can then drill down on the functional requirements that matter most in terms of empowering your objectives and the appropriate people.
Finally, I think it also matters that you feel a sense of connection and confidence with the people behind the software. Do they share your values? Are they a resource for you?Do they deliver on their promises? Do they act like a ministry partner or a vendor? Do their customers act like raving fans or just users? All of this matters a lot, especially when you consider the investment you plan to make and the potential lifespan of the relationship.
Hope that helps!
Hi Steven,
Good effort on your article and the website (if it’s yours). I’m sure it’s a geat resource to churches.
From my 12+ years experience talking with churches about databases I believe the right database solution for a church depends on factors such as:
- what features are important to them
- what techincal skills (resources) the church has (eg. to customise reports…etc)
- the churches budget
Every database solution has it’s strengths and weaknesses.
I have received an email from Dick Webber at RDS Advantage and thought it might be helpful to post it here, with Dick’s permission:
“We have been serving churches for 23 years, and we function as a ministry, so we observe the way churches conduct their ministries, and work to serve their needs. Our system, RDS Advantage, has become one of the two or three most comprehensive systems available, and we presently serve churches of up to 24,000 members. Although we serve smaller churches, too, on average we probably serve more large churches than most of the other 45 or so church management systems.
My thoughts about your article and your thinking about church management systems are these:
1. Every church is different in many ways, and has different needs. There is no ‘one size or one kind that fits all.’
2. There is some misleading information and mis-understanding about web-based applications.
· There is no totally web-based system on the market that contains all the features and capabilities of the top server-based systems.
· There is no totally secure web based data processing. Even Microsoft, the banking industry, government and military data has been, and will be subject to hacking. Experts agree that anything that can be encrypted or secured can be hacked, given the time and money. You might want to read the book, Secrets & Lies by Bruce Schneier (Publisher John Wiley & Sons).
· We are hosting our web-based applications on a Tier Three Data Center, one of the most secure possible, and we still will not place sensitive accounting information (bank account numbers, social security numbers, etc.) on the web. The liability for the church and vendor is large.
· Consultants have recommended to us that every church should have ownership and control of their own data on their own premises. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t use web-based data processing, but it does suggest some clear thinking about what data processing should be done on the web, and how it is best done.
· Our response to these thoughts has been to select the applications that are the most benefit to churches by using the Internet, and build those as .NET web-based applications, then integrate that with the on-premise server-based database. This provides the best of both worlds.
· It is not true that by using web-based applications the church does not need a local network and computers. There is still data processing a church needs to do beyond their church management system. It is also not true that maintaining a server-based system is a chore – a well designed and implemented church management system requires an insignificant amount of maintenance.
3. Use of Macs: Macs are excellent computers, especially for graphics. They are not necessarily the best choice for database use or for churches, when used exclusively.
· They cost more than Microsoft based computers.
· There is not the selection of applications for Macs.
· None of the comprehensive church management systems available support native Mac processing
· We have many churches using Macs with our Windows applications. They either use Fusion with their Macs, or access the RDS Advantage Windows applications over the Internet using something like Remote Desktop, Terminal Services, or a third party application like LogMeIn. In this environment the church only needs one Windows computer to host the RDS Advantage system. Some people’s adoration of Macs causes them to make poor decisions for their churches.
Many people believe that eventually all data processing will be Internet based, and the trend is moving that way. But I would be cautious about assuming that will be absolute, or that it will be the best solution for all users.”
Below is an email I received from Trevor at Excellerate:
“That is a good article, and you make some great points, especially about the uses of a database and how it can facilitate easier church management. I guess the main area I would like to hear more about is why you say web-based is the best way to go. It would be interesting to hear your thought process there and some of the issues you weighted off against each other.
For us, the reason we’ve stuck with a software solution rather than web-based is primarily because of the cost to the users, and our niche is providing the benefits of church management software to churches regardless of their resources (hence the free version for small churches). We just don’t feel a web-solution can help us do that. After all, once you add up the monthly fees, web solutions often become the more expensive solution after only a few months, and the cost just keeps going up with each month that you have it. Even if churches can handle a $50 a month payment or so, we just don’t feel right having them pay that for years on end, when there are more important uses for that money. With a software solution, you can pay it off and stop paying without losing any service.
The other main reason is, as one of your commentators mentioned, the access issue. Yea, webbased offers a lot in access from exotic locations and from your phone and all that. But, 90% of your access will occur in the church office anyway, and if that one connection does down, it doesn’t matter if you could connect from Tahiti, you still don’t have your data where you need it. If fact, we have a friend who was visiting another church when they launched a web-based child check-in software. They had spent thousands of dollars on the program and on the check-in hardware, and planned to launch it during a huge church event. As soon as they tried to launch it, they found out the database company took everything down for maintained. After all they spent, the church had to return to pen and paper check-in. With a software solution, that doesn’t happen. Plus, with software you can still set up a remote connection linking each employee’s home computer to their work computer, so they can access everything from home.”
Here’s an email I received from Dennis at ChurchPro:
“Web based software is usually rented each year to the tune of of $400 +
extra per seat plus each user has to have a high speed connection which is more cost. Our approach is to us GoToMyPc and keep the data at your church. You can log in any time via the internet. A high speed connection is required for this approach also. GoToMyPc also charges a monthly seat, but this approach is cheaper. You also do not have the yearly rental for ChurchPro.
LogMeIn is another vendor for internet remote login.
With our approach the data is at the church, on your computer.
Networking at the church is now possible with because you have the data on your central server.”
Hi. I’m President of Wennblom Solutions, Inc., and the author of SeekerWorks(TM). I see it is included as one of your links below, for which I’m grateful. However, based upon the content of this blog so far, it appears there’s little to no interest in our company or our product, since it is not web-based.
I started Wennblom Solutions, Inc. in 1999 for consulting purposes and had no intent to create a church management system. Yet, my church was using Excel to try to keep track of things, and poorly at that. So, I set forth to create something on a pro-bono basis that would come close to meeting my church’s needs, with my pastor’s caveat that if it wasn’t easy to use, he’d never use it. He does use it today quite a bit. However, as Steven Kryger points out in his July 1-3:26pm comment about people in church who have programming skills, I eventually had to decide what would happen when I leave the church (which I haven’t- I became an elder instead) or lose interest. My church strongly encouraged me to sell the program to other churches, since some of them had previously used Shelby Systems and liked what I wrote so much better. I ignored them for a couple of years, but then decided to give it a try. That was in 2004 and we’ve greatly added to it since then.
SeekerWorks(TM) is PC-based, since I picked Visual FoxPro as my development tool in 2001. Why? Because it had the language and database all-in-one, there were no royalty requirements to Microsoft for re-distribution of my executable and their run-time modules, the same programs worked on both Mac’s and PC’s, and it was much easier to develop programs with compared to the web tools available at the time. Microsoft released version 9.0 in 2005, I think and promises to support it through 2015 (it does work on Vista), after which they’ve indicated an end of support.
That said, the future of software will most likely be SAAS (software as a service) hosted somewhere in the internet cloud as the standard rather than the exception (perhaps in five to ten years). With the advent of increasing speeds (broadband) on the internet, this option is becoming more and more feasible and practical, since response times are going down for a well-designed web-developed set of pages and people are switching from dial-up connections.
However, developing web-based programs takes more time, is more expensive in a lot of cases (depending on the tool set), and it presents a host of challenges not faced with PC-based systems. Security is the biggest concern (in my opinion). A PC-based program is as secure as the building it is housed in, the network it is on, and whether or not it is exposed to the internet using Remote Desktop Application (RDP) and/or a Virtual Private Network (VPN), AND whether the backups from that program are stored off-site or not. A web-based program is as secure as the hosting company, with exposure to virtually every person on the planet with an internet connection. Certainly, it should use encryption at a minimum, but how secure is the data really?
Please don’t mis-understand me. I’m not saying PC-based is better at all. In our case, that’s what we have available today, though we plan to provide what I call “web extensions” that put some things on the web. But, who knows- we could end up re-writing the whole program for the web.
However, is “platform” the most important consideration for you all? Where does “functionality” rank for you? Do you tell the software companies why you don’t or won’t pick them? I want to know how to improve SeekerWorks(TM) to the point that it really is the best out there– “to provide excellent software, web and other information technology services that free up churches to reach spiritually seeking people.”
Sorry this is so long, but I didn’t have time to make it shorter.
It seems that those who sell non-web-based applications are keen to point out the problems with web-based solutions! I would highlight the point that a SAAS vendor with hundreds of clients will devote much more attention to security than your average volunteer/non-technie administered church office network.
On the topic of onsite PC-based solutions vs offsite web-based solutions – a middle ground is an onsite web-based system. You can have a web server running in your church office that’s accessible to the outside world. Benefits are preserved access if office internet connection goes down, and knowing exactly where your data is stored and who’s got control of it. The drawback (a showstopper in many cases) is that you have to take responsibility for maintenance and security of a web-facing server yourself (or hire a contractor to do so).
Daniel (above) asks: “Where does “functionality” rank for you?” and the answer from this church pastor is “high”!
We’re in the process of evaluating church management systems at the moment because our growing church of 250+ is rapidly losing track of all the new people visiting us and the administrative burden on our two paid staff is becoming unworkable. I’ve sat through a bunch of video tours and webinars and looked at one or two online demos and am trying to sort out what our actual requirement are and which system (of those I’ve seen) best matches them.
Five of our requirements that came to me while reading this article were:
1. Member-updatable church directory. We want a solution that takes responsibility for keeping up-to-date records out of the hands of our pastors or volunteer administrators and puts it into the hands of our members. Chips Rafferty got a new mobile phone number? Great, if he is able to log on and update that himself it rids us of the current multi-handling and misplacing of information that currently causes us endless frustration.
2. Role-related administration. We want a solution that enables ministry leaders to take responsibility for their area of ministry, including personnel, resources, event management and so on. Ace Ventura, head of the 5pm church music team needs to get new sheet music into the hands of the band? No problem. He logs in, uploads the file and sends the group and email with a link to the download. He also invites them to an event he creates (band practice) to go through the song.
3. Remove adminstrative bottlenecking. An example: our current church calendar sits on two whiteboards behind the reception desk. An event is booking in when it appears on these calendars. If we’re fortunate, a pastor or administrative volunteer will copy new entries into our Outlook Calendar and then export them to the Google calendar which appears on our church website. In reality, this seldom happens. We want a system that allows people to see what is on when from wherever they are accessing the net, allows appropriate people to book events online and allows staff to resolve booking conflicts.
4. Event signup and ticket booking. We want a system that encourages church members to take responsibility for their own participation in church and ministry events, particularly training opportunities, by allowing them to sign up to – and pay for – events online. We want the pastor’s time after church spent on significant conversations, not chasing regular members with a clipboard and cash jar to see whether they will come to this or that conference.
5. Easy incorporation of vistors and new people. We want to make it easy for new people to plug themselves in (or be plugged in) to the system. We want to make it easy to make sure follow-up happens and that somebody takes responsibility for moving new folks along in their journey with us, whether it be a short one or a long one.
I guess, as I’ve thought about it, we really want something that is going to help our pastor’s free themselves from the minutiae of church administration and focus on what they are financially supported to do – prayer and the ministry of the Word – while encouraging our members to take responsibility for their own involvement and ministry responsibilities.
On the flip-side, our greatest hesitation concerning the systems we’ve been testing is ongoing cost. A monthly cost of, say, US$200-250 a month has been difficult to sell to our church elders so far because of the ongoing committment we would be making. You don’t chop and change products once you go the expense of purchasing, setting up and populating a system like this, so an initial committment is, in reality, a committment for a substantially longer term. So, say a subscription costs us US$2500 a year, that’s $25,000 over ten years which, since we are in Australia, could be anywhere between $30,000-$50,000 local dollars given the fluctations in our currency over the last decade (assuming the monthly price does not increase). It’s not an insignificant amount of money and our elders are asking whether we will be committing ourselves to something that looks good now that will be a debt and a burden later.
Below is an email I’ve received from Christopher Rivers at Arena ChMS:
“As an Arena client you have control of your data, possibility of enhancing and extending your install of Arena (not possible with ANY other CHMS application on the market today), no multi-year contract, support via phone, email and community. Arena has the stability of a 33 year old company behind us, but the agility of a smaller division.
* Arena is a browser based application which means if your staff members are even the least bit comfortable on the World Wide Web, they will be able to use Arena.
* Arena can help manage your entire Volunteer network, from registering on the web, emailing the staff members when people register, and taking
attendance. This doesn’t even scratch the surface, but check out this video on how one Church matches duplicates in Arena http://bit.ly/166eGY
* All our Clients are assigned their own Client Service Representitive. We offer incredible support.
* Dynamic reporting ability.
* Arena allows your small group leaders the ability to access their small groups from anywhere they have an Internet connection. They can track attendance, send emails, and even update member data if you choose to grant them rights to do so.
* Arena allows you to manage just about all aspects of Events, which include registration, notifying Event owners of new registration, and collecting money via ACH or credit card.
* Arena offers a separate module just for Missions, which allows registration from the web,
* Arena has the ability to manage your church website from the database.
Check out this Arena managed website: http://bit.ly/E2d3g
* Arena is a shared-source application that offers each church the ability to tailor many areas. Check out this article in Church Executive: http://bit.ly/i3pMW
If you are interested in how we compare to current software solutions check out this blog http://bit.ly/606Mb. The documentation you will find is unbiased and extremely helpful for anyone looking to find a software provider.
Please check out Arena’s blog on recent information. Here is a recent post regarding our new small group networking portal that will be in our next version of Arena ChMS: http://bit.ly/OhX79“
Hey everyone, I’m the creator of Stafftool. Great conversation going on here, thanks to Steven for the excellent post and for the shout out!
So to give a little background on Stafftool, the whole reason I created it was because I saw how much trouble my smallish church at the time was having keeping everything coordinated and in sync with each other. Being a Mac-based church, there just weren’t many options for church-focused tools, so being a web developer I decided to start on something web-based so everyone could use it, no matter what type of computer they had or where they were located.
One thing that I really focused on was the interface and making everything both nice to look at and easy to use. I think it’s still a pretty big difference between Stafftool and most of the other offerings. The feature set is intended to be flexible enough to be usable by lots of different organizations and their unique ways of working. For example, you can create smart groups of people that will be an always up-to-date collection of people based on different attributes like tags, group memberships, age, etc. This is one of the more powerful aspects of the system that allows it to be relatively simple on the surface, but gives you the capability to customize it to what you need. One thing I’ve definitely found out over the course of the project is that no two churches are alike and that everyone has their own system, so empowering each church with the flexibility to implement their own system is key.
We’re currently in the process of developing a major new version of the system and will be rolling it out with a new name, website and feature set, as well as a somewhat expanded vision of community building instead of just being a “staff tool,” which has always been a bit of a misnomer since there is a good amount of community features already. I’ll be sure to make an announcement when this new version is closer to finished.
As for all the talk in this thread about features and whatnot, I won’t bore you all with a big feature list or anything like that. Instead, I’ll answer Tom Magill’s feature list with info about what’s currently available and what is planned for the next version.
1. Member-updatable church directory.
Yes, this is currently available, since one of the main things I wanted was for the members of the church to be able to update their own info whenever possible, removing the burden from staff. So, you can grant anyone in the database an account and they can log in, update their info, view and communicate with the groups they’re a part of, see upcoming events, etc.
2. Role-related administration.
Those accounts mentioned above can be granted “admin” rights, and then their access to the different areas of the app can be tweaked. For instance, you can give an admin user full access to editing and adding new people, but no extra capabilities with the contributions management. Also, the scenario you describe is possible, wherein you can make a user the leader of a group (the worship band) and they can then log in send a message to the members of the group with the sheet music as an attachment, and create the practice event on the calendar. However, at this time there is no specific way to invite people to an event, but this is a major component of the next version that is being worked on, which I’ll comment on in the calendar question.
3. Remove administrative bottlenecking.
This is one of the main areas that my original church had a problem with that I set out to help with. The Stafftool calendar is centralized and can be edited by anyone with the proper permissions. So, as long as everyone keeps their events up to date, everyone else can see what they need and schedule accordingly. The calendar information can also be accessed via iCal feeds in Apple iCal, Outlook or in Google Calendar, so everyone can always see what’s going on. It can also be embedded on your site which many customers are currently doing, although this aspect will be much improved in future versions. But, this idea of centralizing the information to help clear the traditional bottlenecks (the pastor’s computer is the central repository of everything, for example) is the primary reason Stafftool was created in the first place.
4. Event signup and ticket booking.
As mentioned in #2, this is a major focus for the new version. You’ll be able to schedule volunteers/staffers to an event such as band practice and they’ll be able to click a button saying they can or can’t make it, so the event organizer will know who is going to show up. This is something we personally need at our church (I play drums in the band) so I’m very excited about it
We’re also implementing more general event invitations, similar to evite or Facebook events with RSVP functionality. Event payment is on the roadmap for sure, but may not immediately be part of the initial phase of the next version.
5. Easy incorporation of visitors and new people.
The way users are currently managing this is with a combination of notes, important dates (eg “First Visit”) and smart groups to keep track of recent visitors and important information for each person. It works well, but will be greatly enhanced in the next version with the incorporation of Tasks, which are essentially todos that can be assigned to other people (followup committee, prayer ministry, etc) that will have the new person’s contact info attached and any notes/follow up tasks that are needed. So, for example, a new visitor fills out a contact card, their info is entered into the database and a task is created for the followup committee with that person’s info attached and the task of calling them within the week. The members of the followup committee will receive the task in their account, and the person’s info will be one click away. When someone completes the task, it will be marked as complete on everyone account and they as well as the assigner will be notified.
Also, regarding price, I do realize that the subscription model can end up being more of an investment in the long run, but it definitely has its upsides – lower maintenance, automatic upgrades, access from anywhere with a connection, etc. Also, our pricing currently maxes out at $149 USD a month for essentially unlimited use, so it’s more affordable than what you’ve listed (most people are on a $29 or $49 per month plan).
So hopefully that gives you a good idea of what’s available and what’s in the pipeline. I think this statement you made:
“I guess, as I’ve thought about it, we really want something that is going to help our pastor’s free themselves from the minutiae of church administration and focus on what they are financially supported to do – prayer and the ministry of the Word – while encouraging our members to take responsibility for their own involvement and ministry responsibilities.”
truly sums up what I set out for when I created the system, and it’s what I continue to pursue moving forward. If you have any questions at all, please don’t hesitate to comment here or contact me directly. Thanks!
We’re just about to go public with our Integrated Church Management system (CMS + MMS) in the upcoming weeks. Company is Nineteen05 and we’ve been in development for 18 months now. Should be pretty awesome and would love to get your thoughts on it.
After reading this extensive conversation – I have to say I’m still not moved. In fact, I’m more convinced than ever that we went with the right database solution when we chose Church Community Builder…for numerous reasons, though I will try to keep it short.
1) Ease of use – During my 23+ yrs in ministry I have worked in and with numerous churches & ministries – including 5 ministry plants. I’ve used many different ChMS applications, including some of those represented on this blog. Church Community Builder (CCB) is BY FAR the most user friendly and efficient database solution I’ve ever used. And the best part is….our people actually use it too!
2) Design – the design operates and feels a lot like Facebook which most everyone is comfortable and familiar with.
3) Free Updates – enough said.
4) Accessible/Knowledgeable Support – though I have rarely had to use them. When I do have a question, most of the answers & solutions can be found in their extensive online helps library…which is available to everyone who logs on. They have 3 “lifelines” for help not just an email like most. However, when I have had to contact them about a question or problem, I was always given and expedient solution.
5) Customizable Profile Settings – each person can decide what information they want to have seen and not seen.
6) Customizable Privileges – it’s easy to control who can get in to do what. There is also an area to monitor who is logging on and how often. I find this extremely helpful when holding our staff accountable for using CCB.
PASTORAL CARE LIFESAVER!!!!!! In my opinion, one of the biggest bangs for your buck is what they call the “Process Queues”. This is basically a completely customizable assimilation flow. We use it for everything! Guest assimilation, Pastoral care, Student ministry, Children’s ministry….on & on & on. I wish I had room to go into detail on this but suffice to say that it removed a HUGE weight off my Admin and Pastors. They don’t have to worry about remembering everything because it automatically reminds you! What a relief! Now they can focus on DOING ministry instead of keeping up with the “stuff” of ministry.
7) COMMUNICATION FLOW – This is what really sets it apart from other database solutions. Because CCB was first designed with the idea of building community by increasing communication and interaction, this is where it excels! It has never been so easy to keep people connected, communicating and involved – and we’re not wasting money on mailouts or postcards. Besides, this is more effective and receives a better response than mailouts ever did.
I know I sound biased – because I am. Over the years I have re-investigated other solutions to make sure we were still on the front edge of technology database wise but nothing was able to do what CCB does, the way CCB does it, as good as they do it!
Sure, now there’s new guys popping up everywhere springboarding off the ideas that CCB has been providing and building on for years. It’s easy to follow – but I have a great respect for CCB who has been and still is out there blazing the trail; always improving, always relevant, adding new things and striving to be the best at what they do. They don’t try to be everything to everyone. They’re tenacious about staying true to their original vision – providing tools to help churches build community. Sure, they have all the “data”base stuff everyone else has – they can crunch numbers with the best of them – but it’s their unique community building tools and style that sets them apart. If that’s what you need or desire, then CCB is what you want.
Can you tell I’m a BIG fan? Oh yea!
@ Teresa M — Teresa, I’m currently evaluating ChMS software for our organisation and CCB has figured fairly prominently in our discussions so far. Can I ask which organisation you work for? And, would you be happy to field some private questions by phone or email regarding how you use this system?
Tom – I would be more than happy to field some questions from you. I do it all the time. In fact, anyone who would like to contact me about my personal experience with CCB can do so by emailing me on my personal email: maxnursemiller@gmail.com Once you do so, I will reply and give you my cell phone number.
Oh yea, I forgot to tell you who I work for. I just finished working with a church plant in McKinney, TX. Now I’m helping a new para-church ministry called HelpStaff (www.helpstaff.me) that helps churches find qualified applicants for their staff positions. I also rebuild ministry resume’s for the same company. In addition, I help pastors and churches with creative ministry solutions – not just database solutions but virtual office solutions, assimilation ideas, etc. I love helping pastors and ministries become more efficient and effective…it’s my passion and my strong suit. I look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you Steve for the shout out to CMS companies. I would like to address what appears to be a miss communication about true SaaS systems which is the price over their typical PC based systems or server based systems. The SaaS model is the following – You do NOT charge for a per seat license. If the company charges you this then they are not a SaaS modeled company and probably not a true Internet system but instead are using some Citrix interface with a Server based system to run over the Internet. Some of the companies list above run this type of interface. Technical support and upgrades should be included in the SaaS system as well.
What a lot of post here say is that Server systems are cheaper but failed to remark on the cost of the server systems if proper maintenance and other items are taken into account versus a true SaaS system. An example of this would be the following: If a church buys a server system they need to buy the software and a good/fair server. Most servers start at about 3K and go up. Then you need the software for it to run the CMS system and other components. Depending on the software company this can be as little as 700.00 dollars to 5K. I will use 1500 dollars as an example. So far that is 4500.00 dollars into a system that is housed on your premise. I did not include the routers into this cost to run multiple PC/Macs. If the church is fortunate enough to have a techie to set this up which many do not the cost for someone to come in and do it can start at 500.00 and go up. You also have to include off site storage for the server in case something happens to your building. Most companies charge about 100.00/month (1200.00/year) for this. If your organization does not do this in case of a fire, robbery, etc your data is gone. Your insurance company will replace your computers/servers/etc but what really is the most important thing is the data. Programs and hardware can be easily replaced by insurance.
Using our system called IconCMO as an example and using the average size for churches today you could pay for IconCMO for 17 years at 364.00 per year including technical support, backups, multi user, and upgrades before spending the 6200.00 that I just illustrated. In 17 years you would have to at least upgrade your server 3 or 4 times at a cost of an additional 3K each time not to mention the software upgrades that are always charged for server systems along with technical support each year which was not mentioned in the other post. I did not take into account things like not having to drive to church to do work, time for your volunteers, upgrade cost, time to upgrade, server downtime, onsite technical support that is needed occasionally, etc with a server based system. These items were not discussed but should be addressed when talking cost for both systems types.
Also delays in SaaS software is unfounded observation as well. With the right architecture the SaaS often out performs desktop systems. Our company does both desktop systems and true Internet systems. The Internet system out performs the desktop system in most cases because we test these constantly to ensure that we are giving the fastest product to our clients. When using the right architecture where screens do not refresh every time is the way to build a SaaS system and to make it react like a desktop system.
Security is another very miss understood issue when it comes to SaaS companies. A good company has the right people, architecture, etc in place to handle things instantly. We recommend that organizations ask for downtime report from the companies they are investigating. We run these all the time for clients and prospective clients. I can not speak for others but our company has had in the past year a 99.998 percent up time and have never been hacked in 7 years that our system has been used. So again this argument of uptime or security really is company DEPENDENT and NOT and issue of the SaaS model. When done correctly believe it or not a PC system in a church is more vulnerable than a server on the Internet which would have the right architecture in place and the right people to react when things go wrong. Can things happen — Yes. Does the SaaS companies do everything to keep it from happening – YES. Will a church be able to respond to their server(s) as quickly as a SaaS company that monitors it 24 hours a day – Probably NOT. What the organization needs to know is that the CMS company is only responsible for the software on the server. The hardware, network, etc issues that the organization has is not their problem and they will not help in those matters most of the time.
Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages but there is no premise that proves one is cheaper than another. The advantages and disadvantages are often played out in the feature sets of each and how upgrades, over head and other items are handled with the product. Cost although is important is not a good argument for one over the other because as I illustrated here with the right mix of elements you could run for a very long time before exhausting the first year’s investment in a Server System by using a SaaS system instead. There is many other cost that can be used and I encourage every church to evaluate their needs and scrutinize every company’s offerings.
I want to chime in again on the price discussion.
SeekerWorks(TM) is priced at $149 for the first year (per computer), with a renewal of $75 each year thereafter (per computer). That’s $12.42 per month for the first year and $6.25 per month for subsequent years (per computer). A church can purchase a site license instead if they want an unlimited number of computers running on a network, which only makes sense if you want to use more than 10 computers ($1499 for the first year and $750 for subsequent years). That price is all inclusive (support and updates for no additional charge).
Jay, from Icon Systems, mentioned needing a server to run desktop software. That is not true, at least in the case of SeekerWorks(TM). Of course, if you have a server, it will run on it just fine, but it also runs just fine on one computer or on a peer-to-peer network sharing a drive on one computer with up to 9 other computers (a Windows XP Pro or Windows Vista limit). There’s no “extra” charge for running on a network- the same software works either way.
From a disaster recovery standpoint, if a church were to simply copy the backup file periodically to a CD and store that CD off site, they could recover from any disaster by restoring the data to another computer. You can do this today for free (except the cost of CD’s of course).
Some vendors charge based upon the size of the database, others charge per user (or “seat”), others (including us) charge per computer. Each church must decide for themselves whether the overall cost for the feature set desired is worth it or not. But, in comparison to SeekerWorks(TM) it does cost more to use a web-based system (though a lot of them haven’t shared their pricing here). If access for everyone in your church is most important, web-based is the only way to go (though someone will need to set up or approve accounts for everyone wanting access). If access is realistically only for staff and a group of volunteers, web-based may be too expensive overall. We, as vendors, obviously can’t decide for you. But, of course, every one of us wants you to “pick me”. I pray your search yields for you what works best for you and your church.
I would like to talk a little more about disaster recovery and also price. While churches can put data to a CD reality needs to weigh in here. How many churches honestly can devote time to at least a weekly update? They are busy with growing their church and other activities which is what they should be doing. After all that is the mission for most churches. Even at once a week as it was pointed out, the church will have to re-enter data for at least a week. How much time is that worth to the organization when you are re-entering data instead of doing something more constructive? In most of the cases I have seen the backup are normally a lot longer than a week for most organizations.
I do commend SeekerWorks for making their software work on a peer to peer, which many companies do not, to lower the over all cost for the churches. I would however question speed of access when running all desktops going through an anti-virus program like Norton which inspects every packet on a peer to peer system.
Price for web based versus PC based – The statement “But, in comparison to SeekerWorks it does cost more to use a web-based system (though a lot of them haven’t shared their pricing here).” I don’t see how it is cheaper solution when a web based system such as IconCMO. IconCMO does not hit the 750.00 price point (not including the initial up front cost 1499.00) per year until the church is over 2000 households with no restrictions on the end user count which there is on SeekerWorks. While it may be cheaper for a church that needs only one or two computers, the price escalates quickly to surpass the price of a web based system when you need more computers. Making a blanket statement that I quoted above is mis leading at best and does not take into account the various options that a church may need and matching those up to a vendor and the best solution that is cost effective. Each vendor has it’s strengths and weaknesses when it comes to price but as I mentioned in my other post “Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages but there is no premise that proves one is cheaper than another.”
I do agree that vendors can not make the choice for the churches and it is an individual need that is based on your requirements. Still the best thing to do is know how many computers, users, volunteers, accessibility, back ups needed based on your quantity of data entry, etc before making a choice to go with one or the other.
Hi Jay, thanks for your comments and advice. I’ve just signed up for a trial account with ICON now – just in the process of giving it a spin.
Great discussion!
I hacked up a hybrid solution for our church (Petersham Baptist) out of the Typo3 CMS + Mailman for mailing lists.
Typo3 is a big mess of a CMS that provides heaps of features (complex groups system, user updateable accounts, media management including reading ID3 tags from uploaded MP3s and indexing them). Most of the features you list above are provided by extensions written by other users. Unfortunately the quality of many extensions is not great. I had to hack up most of what we wanted, including the user-updateable contact database and the media library. It was nice having a base to start with though, just had to customise/fix bugs.
We use the groups defined in Typo3 to generate mailing lists in Mailman (updated twice daily). This gives us lots of useful mailing list management stuff for free: big lists can be moderated which catches spam and mis-sent email, but then individual addresses can be whitelisted. Also catches pastors sending massive attachments to 200+ people… I’d be surprised if any of the above software would compete with Mailman for mailing list management (i.e. not just mailouts, but so sub-groups and teams can use email for communication). I guess you could integrate the above software with Mailman as well.
I guess it’s a baptist thing but the whole staff/congregation distinction that appears to be baked in to most of the above software doesn’t work for us. The name “Stafftool” for example =). For us a more standard community oriented site works better. But I should ask my pastor whether he wants those fancy graphs of giving versus attendance and all that …
That being said, I wouldn’t recommend Typo3 to anyone because it has suffered from low code quality, poor docs, and development seems to have slowed. It has worked for us but I would do it differently if I had the chance…
You guys have got me thinking of writing a new one with Rails ala Stafftool… But with less hierarchy built into the name =P
Charlie
P.S. Amusing side trivia. CCB provides “Web 2.0 Functionality” (http://www.churchcommunitybuilder.com/icws254w2/html/products.html) in all three versions. Wow.
Charlie, hehe good point. In fact, the next major version of the app is actually based around that whole observation which we had ourselves
it’s going to have a lot more focus on the community aspect of having everyone in the congregation use it and contribute, and a new name and site to reflect that. In fact, a lot of those features are there, but when I started the app it was just that – a tool for the staff to use. That’s why I asked Steve about those types of features in the third installment. I’ll be sure to let Steve know when the new version is out!
Nice work Toby, it’s a good direction to go in. Soon you’ll have a full-blown CMS I guess?
Any thought of releasing source or at least a paid host-it-yourself option?
In consideration of the pricing discussion, we’ve decided to lower our prices. SeekerWorks(TM) is now priced at $99 for the first year (per computer), with a renewal of $50 each year thereafter (per computer). That’s $8.25 per month for the first year and $4.17 per month for subsequent years (per computer). A church can purchase a site license instead if they want an unlimited number of computers running on a network, which only makes sense if you want to use more than 7 computers ($699 for the first year and $499 for subsequent years). That’s a maximum of $58.25 per month for the first year and a maximum of $41.58 per month for subsequent years. Those prices are all inclusive (support and updates for no additional charge during the support period).
While SeekerWorks(TM) may not be web-based, it is network based and there is a ton of features it can do, including gifts/pledges, a follow up/tickler system to make sure no one falls through the cracks, and a picture-based check-in/check-out system to keep attendance and make sure only the right person can pick up the kids after the service is done. That’s in addition to managing volunteers, small groups, classes/seminars, etc.
Your feedback, if you choose to download it from our website and try it free for 30 days, is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Steve wrote: “I’m actually reviewing three of these databases at the moment (the three I think have the most potential), and will then share what I like and dislike about them, and what I’d recommend for different churches.”
So, you’ve had a month (!) – what conclusions have you come to?
(For me the search goes on …)
Hi Tom, this is still on the table – narrowed it down to two, with a preferred, but more expensive option at number one. I’m currently reviewing some answers to questions I’ve posed, and will be providing an update shortly.
What databases have you come across that you’ve been impressed with?
Truth be told, I’ve felt a little swamp with the number of offerings on the market! And, like you, I’ve been trying to work my way through some (of the better presented ones) via tours and demos and such. Some things make me discount systems out of hand, however, no matter how good they might otherwise appear to be.
So, while Shelby Systems ‘Arena’ looks pretty cool (and includes a website CMS – another system we’re in the process of investigating) – it runs ‘inhouse’ on a Windows Server/SQL program, which we don’t have and would have difficulty maintaining.
Church Community Builder appears to have some very powerful functionality but my fear is that it will be too ‘technical’ for my Rector and our (more senior) lay leadership to use. Therefore the burden will fall on me for implementation, use and so on.
I sat in on a webinar for The City – which was pretty basic – but it’s been hard to get more details or a hands-on with their system to see if it will do what we want. Fellowship One is the system I am currently playing with.
So, no firm recommendation yet … but I’d love to hear your thoughts and suggestions. It might really help my search!
You can message me at tom@hoxtonparkanglican.com if you’d rather not provide spoilers for your next blog !!
Here is a terrific article about choosing the “ideal” church database as dictated by YOUR unique needs. It was published by Church and Worship Technology and features Christ Community Church in the greater Chicago area. They are a multi-site ministry serving roughly 5,000 attenders each week. While CCB gets some nice promo out of this article, the larger theme is about how to find the solution that is RIGHT for how you do church and how you implement it successfully.
Enjoy!
http://www.churchandworship.com/database/dms/cwt0809w78.pdf
Steve
Was there ever a part 2 to this article? If so, maybe you need a short link in the introduction of part one. I’m wondering which database you found to be the best one!